Posts Tagged ‘grip feats’
This Week in Grip 11 Through 14Monday, May 8th, 2017
Since January of this year, I’ve been teaming up with Allen Heineck, one of my long-time members of TheGripAuthority.com & Team Napalm on a (near) weekly podcast on GRIP, called This Week in Grip.
I’m a bit behind in posting those episodes, so I want to go ahead and get caught back up right now.
This Week in Grip – Episode 11
This Week in Grip – Episode 12
This Week in Grip – Episode 13
This Week in Grip – Episode 14
This Week in Grip is getting a lot of good, positive feedback. I really appreciate it!
As much as I’d like to continue adding in the videos for each feat, I literally just can not do it anymore, because it has been taking so very long.
My plan right now is to keep peppering in a few stills of some of the stuff that’s harder to envision, and some of the key moments from the week, and especially highlighting other gripsters around the world.
Please keep on using the hashtag #ThisWeekInGrip on your social media posts so Allen and I can continue to find the feats we miss, and connect with more and more gripsters that are out there!
All the best in your training.
This Week in Grip – Episode 7Wednesday, March 1st, 2017
This Week in Grip – Episode 6Thursday, February 23rd, 2017
The Blob – The Grand-Daddy of all Block WeightsThursday, October 3rd, 2013
The Blob: The Benchmark One Hand Pinch Feat
There is one Grip Strength Challenge Item out there that is parallel with closing the #3 Gripper, Lifting the Inch Dumbbell, and bending a 60D nail. It is the Blob.
This feat of Open hand / Pinching Strength was started by Richard Sorin, who when moving a bunch of broken dumbbells from one storage area to another tried pinch gripping a half 100-lb York Dumbbell. This lone half-100 was the only one of many that thwarted his efforts, and he set himself the goal to train his grip until he was able to not only lift it, but MASTER it.
This Grand-daddy of all Block Weights, which has been found in countless Grip Contest Medley, Grip Gauntlets and other Grip is called the Blob.
The story of how the first Blob came to be and the early history of it is an amazing one. Throughout the first few decades of its existence, it stopped the likes of Richard, John Brookfield, Wade Gillingham, and many others DEAD IN THEIR TRACKS at first, until they were all ready to re-group, re-strategize, and re-formulate their plan of attack.
Since then, thousands have tested themselves against the Blob in various venues across the Nation and around the World, only to have it laugh in their face like the bully at school.
But despite all of the valiant attempts that were colored by failure, there have been a few stories of dramatic inspiration that have spurred others to forge ahead with their training in order to tackle the beast…
Stories such as Rick Walker who at the time he first lifted it in 2003 was only about 200-lbs…
…like Chad Kovach who has successfully lifted the Blob with hands about 7-inches long…
…Brad Martin, who succeeded in lifting it after just a few weeks of training and hands under 7.5 inches…
…even Richard Sorin himself, Blob Pioneer, has average sized hands and can lift the Blob today, some 20+ years after first challenging himself to do so…
…and still, there are many other accounts of people putting in months or even years of dedicated time to finally accomplish the revered feat of lifting the Blob in a Pinch Grip, the true test of Open Hand and Thumb Strength.
Unfortunately, many people talk themselves out of lifting the Blob before they even try.
They think because the have small hands, they have no chance. The documented cases above prove this not to be so, in fact, as long as you can get one of two different finger and thumb combinations over the edges of the Blob, you will be able to lift it.
People think that because they do not own their own Blob, they are doomed to never develop the strength needed to lift it. Nothing could be further from the truth, as there are many suitable options that can be used in order to cultivate the wide-pinch strength needed to slay the Blob.
And many have been told that because they have little experience with Grip Training that they have two chances to lift the Blob: Slim and None. Absolute hogwash. Grip History is filled with accounts of average Gripsters accomplishing Blob Lifts and other Gigantic Feats with little training time under their belt.
The fact is, large hands, owning a Blob, specialty equipment, and years of training are indeed NOT prerequisites to becoming a Blob Lifter.
What is necessary is knowledge. Understanding key points about Blob Lifting such as technique (yes, there is technique; don’t let anyone fool you), chalk application, positioning and leverage, as well as the proper way to train on the Blob, are what you really need.
These factors will ease the frustration of the misses, the failures, and the heartache.
These intangibles will fill in the blanks between your desire to succeed and your ability to feel success.
These elements are the ones that will make you what you want to be – a Blob Lifter.
And now, all of these things are available to you in my brand new ebook, “Lift the Blob.”
If you want to Lift the Blob or any other goal Block Weight that is in your sights, then you need this ebook to help guide you.
If you want to find out more about what kind of information is in Lift the Blob < = click that link. Or if you just want to get started right away, click the button below.
All the best in your training.
Trip to Sorinex Part IIThursday, July 7th, 2011
When I left off the last time, in Part I of the Sorinex Series, I had just told you about how Andrew Durniat and Tex Henderson battled in the Rolling Thunder Pull-up Challenge and how Chad Woodall worked his ass off to pinch two Old Style York 45’s in each hand, and came so friggin’ close!
Well, my friends, as they say, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
Next up on the docket was Rich Williams. On this day in history, Rich Williams would be attempting to Clean and Press the Inch Dumbbell.
Just in case you are not familiar with the Inch Dumbbell, let me give you a quick run-down.
The Inch Dumbbell Replica – 172lbs, 2 and 3/8 inch Handle
The Inch Dumbbell is named after the traveling strongman from the late 1800’s who used to take it around to circuses and expo’s and challenge people to lift it – his name was Thomas Inch. The original Inch Dumbbell is owned by Kim Wood, and at some point both Sorinex and IronMind got molds made and sold replicas up until about 2004 or 2005.
The Inch DB has a 2 and 3/8 inch handle that is roughly 4 or 5 inches long and has large globe heads. This is a solid dumbbell weighing in the neighborhood of 172-lbs, and because it is cast iron and one solid piece, once you try to lift it, the globes start to turn and rip your thumb away and pry your fingers open at the same time.
Deadlifting the Inch Dumbbell is a World Class feat. To walk with one or even Two is out of this world and to clean and press it is damn near godly.
Let me show you what it looks like to clean and press the Inch Dumbbell, Rich Williams style…
That feat is so freakin’ awesome that it it even has a WATER MARK.
As Richard Sorin states at the beginning of the clip, the Inch Dumbbell in this video has only been cleaned and pressed one other time and that was done by the WWE’s Mark Henry in 2002. Other Inch Dumbbells have been clean and pressed in the past, but the people that have done it can all be counted on one hand.
Now, once that was over, plenty of other people tried giving the Inch Dumbbell a ride.
Below, a serious Highland Games Competitor goes for a continental of the Inch Dumbbell. He doesn’t get it, but I am pretty sure he has gotten it in the past, I just can’t recall his name.
I did not bother trying to continental the Inch, but instead, I tried deadlifting it and the original Blob at the same time. As you’ll see, I miss pretty badly on the Inch…
…and then Andrew Durniat came up and hit it pretty easy. Before doing so, he talks about the different disciplines in Grip Sport and how strengths and weaknesses come into play.
Now, it was time to give the baby Inches a try. Both of these lighter Inch Replicas weigh in the neighborhood of 139. They were some of the original replicas that were cast and they did not come out quite right, so Richard just held onto them.
Again, I tried deadlifting the 172 Inch in one hand and one of the baby Inches in the other. Unfortunately, that didn’t go so well either, but instead of just stopping and setting the lighter Inch Dumbbell down, I kept my grip on it, walked it over to the other baby inch, picked the second one up and did a Slow Motion Irish Jig.
Now, something to point out. Sorinex also has a 150-something baby Inch, but I did not try it. I wish I had and here’s why…
I can control the 139 baby Inch like Andrew can control the actual 172 Inch. So does that essentially mean that he can out thick bar me by 30-lbs? If so, how much must Rich out thick bar me by if he is cleaning the Inch dumbbell? 60-lbs? 100-lbs?
Scary thoughts. I really wish i would have tried the 150-something Baby Inch.
More Baby Inch Mayhem
In this next video, a Pro Strongman from the area jumps up and does a continental and several presses. Again, sorry, but I did not catch his name. I then gave it a shot and cleaned it to my shoulder pretty easy and then got three push jerks. These guys are freakin’ monsters for being able to press these things with no leg drive. AWESOME!
Again, Rich came up and showed us how it is done, cleaning it with ease and then pressing it for 20+ like it was his job.
Andrew also tried to snatch the damn thing, but it proved to be just a bit beyond him. Some day it WILL happen.
OK DIESELS, that’s it for Part II. In Part III, we are going to break away from the Inch stuff and get some serious BLOB-bery going…
Hasta la proxima, all the best in your training.
Home Made Strength Grip ChallengeThursday, April 7th, 2011
We received one submission for the Home Made Strength Grip Challenge, but it was a strong one.
In the video below, Brian Lederman shows he’s a man who takes action.
He’s had the DVD for two weeks and has already built AND IS DOMINATING nearly half the equipment.
Great job brother!
Brian, thanks for the great feedback on the new Phone Book Tearing eBook, Phone Book Mass Destruction!
And, since you already have Dave Whitley’s Lessons of the Old-time Strongmen, I’d be glad to send you a Diesel Crew Shirt. Please email me your shirt size and I will get one right out to you, bro!
Check out the site on Monday for next week’s Weekly Grip Strength Challenge, everybody!
Diesel Grip Strength Challenge – Week 7 Winner and Week 8 FeatMonday, February 21st, 2011
Diesel Grip Strength Challenge – Week 2 SubmissionsSaturday, January 15th, 2011
What craziness will we see this week in the Diesel Grip Strength Challenge???
The Week II submissions are posted below. Please vote for who should win for best video by leaving a comment below. Voting is open until 8PM EST on Sunday.
Week 2 Submissions
Upcoming Feature at DieselThursday, December 30th, 2010
Weekly Diesel Grip Feat Challenge
I’ve been thinking of ways to make the Diesel Crew site more interactive, and I think I have come up with a cool way to do it.
Starting next week, we will have the Weekly Diesel Grip Feat Challenge. Here’s how it will work:
1. Every Sunday, I will post a video of a Grip Strength Feat of some sort. It could be anything from Pinching, to Support, to Crushing, to Wrist Strength, or anything else in Grip.
2. You will then have until the following Friday to upload a video of yourself performing the Feat.
3. In the video, you must say your name and state the Feat you are doing for the Weekly Diesel Grip Strength Challenge, Something like this: “I’m Conway Martin, and this is my video for the 5-10’s Pinch Lift for The Weekly Diesel Grip Challenge at DieselCrew.com.” Then you just hit the feat on film!
4. You must then hit me with an email with the link to the video. I must receive the email with the video link no later than 8PM EST on the Friday of the challenge.
5. I will post all of the videos that have been submitted here on the Diesel site. My goal will be to post all of the videos I receive by Saturday at 8PM, EST.
6. Viewers at the Diesel site will leave comments, deciding who has the best video and who should win a prize. Voting will continue until Sunday at 8PM, EST.
7. Whoever is voted “Best Video” for the Weekly Grip Strength Challenge, will receive a special limited edition Diesel prize. What is it exactly? You’ll have to take part in order to find out!
8. Videos can not contain anything that may be offensive to Diesel readers. Getting pumped up is fine, but you WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED if you use racial, ethnic, sexual slurs and things like this. We do reserve the right to disallow a video if we deem it inappropriate.
500-lb Axle Deadlift (Photo – Kevin Cronin)
I think this is going to be a very fun and interactive feature here at the Diesel Crew site. I look forward to seeing all of your videos.
By the way, I’m not wasting any time getting started. The first Weekly Grip Strength Challenge will be posted here on the site on Sunday afternoon, January 2nd, 2011.
So get your chalk, and get ready to do some serious Grip Training in 2011.
Remember, the first challenge will be here this Sunday – don’t miss it!
If you have questions, please leave a comment below.
All the best in your training!
Feedback on Nail Bending DVDWednesday, December 29th, 2010
Earlier this month, I released the Nail Bending DVD – How to Melt Steel with Your Bare Hands and the positive feedback has literally been rolling from all over the Nation and the World for that matter.
Get Your Copy, NOW. Click here = > NAIL BENDING DVD
From Ben Edwards:
I got the DVD yesterday and watched the first half of it today. LOVE the 2004 Red Nail intro loop! I know a lot of guys that would literally consider the price of the DVD worth a few views of that video alone for motivational purposes. Have really been impressed with the amount of time and effort/knowledge that went into making that Bending DVD. Even guys like me with a very solid bending base will no doubt find something that will help them along their path to increased bending strength. I’ve taken notes on a few sections of the DVD and wanted to wait until my muscle relaxers wear off (I hurt myself on Monday – bulging disc!) before I watch that part a few times through and then take notes on that as well.
From Rory Hickman:
Thought I’d let you know the DVD arrived yesterday morning, I watched half yesterday and the other half this morning – absolutely awesome the whole way through! Just like your other products the video and sound quality are second only to the amazing content. I was blown away by the detail you went into just on wrapping, I’d never imagined there was so much to take into consideration and that was just the first 20 minutes or so. To be honest I could mention every section and say how good each was – but I’m not sure how many variations on the work ‘excellent’ I could come up with before it got repetitive…
I’ve already tried out the band exercise for developing the flexibility to get into the proper DO-bending position – first couple of reps barely came within 6 inches of my neck but I was able to get closer each time – I can definitely see how it will help. The thumb stretch felt great too – mine sometimes get tight from working on the computer and drawing but I could feel the stretch really well.
Love the DVD man, it’s got me completely fired up to melt some steel but I’m gonna take your advice and work back into it slowly. I’ve got a load of things to work on to get to the point where I’ll be bending anything impressive but with this I now actually know what I need to work on. Thanks for creating such an incredible product, it’s awesome that someone who’s at the competitive level you’re at is so willing to share so much of your training knowledge.
Get Your Copy, NOW. Click here = > NAIL BENDING DVD
From The Iron Tamer, Dave Whitley:
From Mike “The Machine” Bruce:
This DVD is steadily making its way across the entire globe.
Truly a world-wide phenomenon, here are some of the countries where the DVD has been purchased:
- United Kingdom
Canada (Just ordered TODAY!)
Belgium (Another Country with Molten Steel!)
Switzerland (Added 1/6/11)
And if you are in the United States, and think you hear the squeaky sound of suede being tightened on a bolt or the sweet smell of steel being melted by the power of hand strength, you probably live near a nail bender. Here are some of the cities where the DVD was purchased during the first week only.
- Rosemount, MN
San Diego, CA
Shaw Air Force Base, SC
Merritt Island, FL
(The State of Florida must be covered in molten steel by now!!!)
San Bruno, CA
Rock Creek, OH
(Expect Climate Changes in California in 2011 due to all the Nail Benders)
Thanks to everyone who has picked up the DVD!
Hearing good things about my products makes me glad that I put them out and fires me up to get the next one out there!
If you’d like to leave feedback about the DVD, please a comment in the section below…
Get Your Copy of the Nail Bending DVD = > Start Ruining Perfectly Good Stuff
Kevin Greto’s Tropheys – 60D Timber Ties – The First of Many to Come, For Sure…
Iron Master Nomination – Richard SorinSunday, December 12th, 2010
Hello everybody. Today, I am covering an Iron Master nomination that I put in myself.
This one is for Richard Sorin, owner of Sorinex (Sorinex.com), and famed Grip Strength Legend who innovated The Blob and became the first person to close the #3 Gripper.
Iron Master – Richard Sorin
I first heard of Richard Sorin in 2002 when I first learned about Grip Training.
I quickly found out that essentially the name Sorin and the term Grip Strength were synonymous.
While not the first to train for Grip Strength, Richard has been cited by John Brookfield and many others as a pioneer in the focused development of World Class Grip Strength.
As you’ll see, Richard has been messing around with odd objects and Grip Training challenge pieces for decades!
Richard Sorin, Anvil Lifting
I salute Richard Sorin for many reasons. No doubt, Richard’s interest in Grip Strength is one of the primary reasons I train for Grip Strength, and plan to do so for decades to come as well.
But also Richard has had a bigger effect on me. Richard inspired me a few years ago to always continue to train hard regardless of what challenges I have going on in my life.
This is because Richard is indeed a Cancer survivor and shortly after battling the disease he was right back to training doing unbelievable feats, including pulling large vehicles with the strength of his neck, using a head harness, shown below.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
I asked Richard to write a few words about how he got started in strength training, and I figured that he would say something like High School or College Sports got him into training, but in reality it started out far, far, far before that. Check this out…
- My mind spins trying to say where it all started… I loved strength from my earliest times. I hauled my Billard Jr. Champmaker Barbell into show and tell in 5 year old kindergarten (my most prized posession at that time).
Years went by with my backyard gyms, a huge cellar gym with full size platforms at “The Cedar St. Boys” and monthly trips to compete in Olympic weightlifting contests in New York City at Lost Battalion Hall.
I represented the Keasby Eagles lifting club along with famed Olympian Phil Grippaldi. Trips to York starting at age 13, the York picnics, Saturday training at the York gym, eating with the “greats” at the York diner all moulded me.
Richard on his college years and further exploration of the world of strength training…
- Later, when strong enough to acquire a scholarship at U of South Carolina I competed in track, throwing the discus and shotput. I was only 215 bodyweight but summer spent at home during the college years at the Elizabeth YMCA gave me the power and drive to do well.
Power rack training started in its early development with my training partner Anthony Dittillo and Dezo Ban, my Hungarian mentor, and we grew strong. Track was a passion but lifting was my love and rarely did (at least in my mind) the two overlap. I had mechanical skills and wherever I went, school, teaching, coaching, whatever, I always tried to build the better mousetrap as far as exercise and strength equipment was concerned.
My teaching years ended in the realization there was more for me to do. I started my business and though my offerings were heavy, black, and ugly all said “it lasts forever.” That was 30 years ago and still now at 60 my thirst and love of iron persists.
Richard on why he remains involved in Grip and other sporting endeavors…
- I feel as part of giving back to so many that took their time to inspire and help me, (I try) to help with events that bring new blood into the sport: Our yearly Summer Strong Day of Strength, our open door, open house daily policy, being involved in creating the events and equipment at the Arnold’s Classic Strongman and now “Mighty Mitts” has brought my life full circle.
I asked Richard what he felt were some of his greatest accomplishments in Grip and the World of Strength…
- My greatest accomplishments were in part touched by the “impossible” strength rooms designed and built for colleges and pro teams that won State, National championships, Superbowls and through a bit of what I did became stronger men.
My greatest accomplishment is taking the gifts God gave me and having the opportunity to do something with them in the presence of the joy of my life my son Bert. A father always wants his child to be more than he was…I have my wish answered in him.
I asked Richard what some of his numbers are and what his training routine involves these days, and here is what he said…
- I still lift 3-4 days per week and don’t understand what taking an easy workout is. My overall strength for a skinny guy was good in my earlier years with a 290 snatch 714 deadlift, and 675 squat, cheat curl 238X10 etc.
- Deadlifts of 552 on a 1″ bar
- 530 on a 2″ bar
- 675 lockout
- and a #3 gripper close
My real strength, whether I realized it or not, was in my hands. I always toyed with my grip but in the late 80’s I began doing bouts of grip work where some personal bests rivaled the top recorded efforts. I tried to vary my training and devised tools of grip to test and build my strength in the three aspects that grip strength is measured (crush, pinch, support).
Lifting the Blob
I took a simple chunk of pesky broken York dumbbell and after mastering lifting it, it slowly became a world standard for grip manhood “the Blob.”
The First to Close the #3
I was in the early years of spring gripper interest and again lucky to set a world standard level by being the first to close a #3 Ironmind gripper, a feat that I was proud to repeat officially 17 years later at age 58.
Note from Jedd: Richard has been one of a very few who has actually re-certified on the #3 after the rule change was implemented in 2005, mandating the use of a credit card to establish legal set depth…)
My strongest feats seem like they all revolved around my strength in my first two fingers,
These were all done with just those two fingers of each hand.
My supporting power was also good with a non strap assisted lockout with 1331lbs. If anything good came of this hard work was to see the interest in Grip grow a hundredfold and still be able in my own way to help things along.
I can’t say life has been easy but the guiding light of strength has sustained and has given me memories that indeed has given me a “wealthy soul”.
Your friend in strength,
It’s been my pleasure to feature Richard Sorin this week in the Diesel Iron Masters. Now check out some of the other pics that were sent over by Kevin and Jeff at Sorinex who helped me out with this recognition.
If you would like to nominate someone for Iron Masters, please contact me at my email address. Put “Iron Masters Nomination” in the subject. From there, include the name of the recipient along with the information you’d like to provide.
Remember, the person needs to be at least 40 years old, they have to be an avid strength trainer, and they have to have had a profound effect on you, inspired you, or in some other way motivated you to train in order to follow in their foot-steps. They HAVE to be a GOOD EXAMPLE.
You can NOT nominate yourself, however…
To give you an idea of other Diesel Iron Master recipients, check out the links below:
I look forward to receiving your nominations. Thanks and all the best in your training.
Get Certified on the #3 = > The Grip Authority
Start Melting Steel = > Nail Bending DVD
Christmas Grip Shirt = > Merry Gripmas
From The Mail Bag – Card Tearing FeedbackMonday, March 1st, 2010
It’s hard for me to believe that it’s been almost a full year since I released the Card Tearing eBook.
When I wrote it, I wanted to make it a complete Card Tearing System.
I designed it to be a resource that anyone could use to work toward tearing a deck of cards, regardless of hand size, current strength level, or prior training experience.
SEE THE REST OF THIS COOL POST AFTER THE JUMP (more…)
5 Important Lessons for New Steel Benders by Chris SmithMonday, November 2nd, 2009
I’m still pretty new to the nail bending game. Before I started nail bending, I would watch loads of videos of other people bending pieces of steel, and was filled at first with disbelief and eventually fascination. That’s how it works. It draws you in. That’s why people refer to it as the addiction. There is something mystifying about taking a perfectly good piece of steel and demolishing it with your bare hands. Once you bend your first nail, there is no turning back…
There is a lot to learn when getting started though. You can’t (and shouldn’t) just pick up any piece of steel you can find and try to bend it. As a beginner, there are lots of things you need to know. The differences between pieces of steel, what to start with, how to progress and how to correctly bend are just a few of the things you need to know before even picking up your first nail. If you have never been in a gym before, you wouldn’t just walk in and try to bang out deadlifts would you? Steel bending is no different. You need to know proper intensity (what stock to use), frequency (you can’t just do hard bends every day), and technique, (more…)
Halloween and the Rolling ThunderFriday, October 30th, 2009
Double Blob Farmers WalkTuesday, May 5th, 2009
During the Arnold Classic I gathered with a bunch of friends from around the nation at a little park in Columbus and we all had a few tries at some grip feats. One of the feats I was interested in trying was the Double Blob Farmer’s Walk. The record for this right now is a bit over 107 feet!
I tried five or six attempts. The one in this video clips is my third. After this one, my distance dropped off.
For those of you who may not know, the Blob is one head of a York 100-lb dumbbell. Here are some other facts about the Blob.
- * Richard Sorin named the Blob and was the first to attempt to lift it.
* Lifting the Blob is a test of pinch grip strength.
* It is a great feat of grip strength to lift one Blob to the full deadlift position.
* The Blob tapers outward from the top to the widest portion.
For more Blob lifting videos, check out my YouTube Channel.
All the best in your training,
How to Build Muscle | Muscle Building Workouts | How to Lose Fat | Six Pack Abs | Build Muscle, Muscle Gaining Workouts | Build Muscle Membership Site
Arnold Classic Write-up Part ITuesday, March 10th, 2009
I just returned from my trip to the Arnold Classic, in Columbus, Ohio. We have been going for years and this year the trip was as great as ever. The Arnold Classic weekend is packed full of strength sport action, including strongman and powerlifting as well as many grip challenges at various expo center booths. However, this year I had my sights set on the biggest Arnold grip challenge of them all – the GNC Grip Gauntlet.
Gripmas Carol Grip Contest Write-upWednesday, December 17th, 2008
It was a great contest. I have a ton of videos of the after-contest feats. It will take me some time to get them all posted, just hang tight. First one up is Bob Sundin’s Two 45’s Pinch.
My crush was off for the contest and only managed a 177, putting me in third place right off the bat, so I had to play catch up the whole rest of the contest.
For the pinch, I think my attempts were 230, 240, 246, and 254. So my third was an attempt at the US record and my 4th was an attempt at the world’s record. I told Eaton on the way down in the snow and ice that I was going to squeeze the pinch set-up so hard that I was going to snap it in half. And that is what i did every attempt. I squeezed every single attempt so hard my entire torso shook. There was no way an attempt was going to slip out of my hands. So the 246 was no problem. I lined up everything real nice for the 254 but it only barely came off the floor. Not sure what happened there. I think at that point I was .5 or .8 points behind Dave.